You Gon Listen

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Welcome to YouGo Listen at 91.5 KUNV. I'm your host, Karen G. Charles, and I'm here with my two guests, Erin Lewis and Brianna Green, and we're talking about cultural appropriation today. I like to preface this with describing the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation. Cultural appreciation is, as the name suggests, the appreciation of a culture. Examples include reading up on the culture, talking to people of that culture, understanding the history behind that culture, broadening your perspective. Cultural appropriation is disguising a culture as your own, aka appropriating it. Examples include taking traditional hairstyles and passing them off as something new to make profit, claiming that someone outside of said culture created or pioneered something when they didn't, erasing the stories and history of said culture and replacing it with a whitewashed one, wearing traditional styles that are important or sacred to said culture when they don't belong to you, copying languages or dialects and using them to make jokes or pass yourself off as a person a part of that culture, changing your physical appearance to pass off as someone a part of that culture, etc. etc. There are so many examples. So I want to know what y'all think. So before we get into the questions, I want to remind you that you are listening to You Gon' Listen at 91.5 KUNV. I'm your host, Karen Jean-Charles, and I'm here with my two guests, Erin Lewis and Brianna Green, and we're talking about cultural appropriation today. So before we begin, can y'all introduce yourselves? Who are you, what's your major, and where does your family come from? Hey, you guys, I'm Brianna. I'm majoring in psychology, and my dad is from Jamaica and my mom is from St. Croix, the

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U.S. Virgin Islands.

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I'm Erin. I'm an early childhood education major and my mom is from Barbados. So what is an example of cultural appropriation that angers or frustrates you the most? How does that Hank you feel?

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I said hate.

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That's all hate.

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I was thinking about that the whole time. I'm sorry. I was thinking about that the whole time. That man is a menace to society. They need to let him go. Okay. I'm tired of him. Like, literally the whole time you were giving the example, I was like, Chad Hanks. Chad Hanks. The shoe fits. He needs to buy the other one. Hold on. For the audience who doesn't know who that is, can you explain real quick? I want Brita to explain that because that's Brita's territory. Okay, so basically, Chet Hanks is Tom Hanks' youngest son, and this man loves Jamaican culture. He speaks Patois, he loves the women, the food, the whole nine. And he loves to get on social media and speak in Patois, and it's so funny coming out of his mouth. He just looks ridiculous because it's not his culture. He is a full-blown white man. It's not funny, it's not funny, but it's like, it's funny because that man is embarrassing himself, and for what? The next person that comes to mind is Drake, but we're gonna keep that, we're gonna put that on the shelf. We're gonna put him on the shelf for now, because Drake and his, his one of, every couple of months Drake got a new accent. He was like, oh, are you from, sir? You from Toronto?

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I can't tell.

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Like, it's just madness.

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But with Chet Hanks, it's like every single time. And I remember the last video I saw, somebody was like, he broke character. He knew he said this, I went back and started laughing. And I was like, what is wrong with him? And it brings me back to this. I showed my mom one of those videos, and when I told her today what we were talking about, she was like, oh, the first thing you can talk about is Jamaica. I said, you know what, that's a very good point. Because everybody, if you have any type of accent, any type of music, from that region.

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Where you're from Jamaica.

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Right, you're automatically from there. I'm like, wow. I'm like, Rihanna's not from Jamaica. I don't know if she made that very clear. Okay, come on now, get your head in the game. But it's very frustrating, especially with island cultures, because it's like, each island has their own thing, and then all of a sudden we all get put into the same category and we're all from Jamaica, and I'm like, that doesn't work. That's not how... Please don't put us all in the same category, it's not fair. For me, it doesn't make sense to me. You don't like us, whatever we do is ghetto and ratchet. You are, our clothes is this, our makeup is that, but yet here you are emanating our entire style from head to toe, I don't get it. I know Nikita Dragun has been big for blackfishing and it sucks because her platform is so huge. And she's been called out time and time and time and time again. And she still just turns a blind eye, pretends like she's dumb, doesn't know what's going on. And then you have Rachel Dozel, how are you saying her last name? She was the first black fisher I've ever seen in my life. I thought she was black. And that is a 100% honest woman. I did not know she, I was fooled. Bamboo will punch me, led astray with Rachel. I was psyched. I was so psyched. Black fishing is diabolical, y'all. I can't, I can't with my situation. It just, it hurts my feelings. I'm so sorry, but I can't handle it.

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She said, Boozled.

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Boozled.

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Boozled.

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Good wink.

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Good wink. Good wink. Good wink.

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Black fishing, God, it has to stop. And then when we do it, it's derogatory terms back to back to back. But when these other females do it, who are not POC, who are not black, they're praised for it. It's on Prada Runways, it's on Instagram being praised, people want to buy it. But we've been doing this for centuries. I'm saying, please, yeah, please. Let's talk about Kim Kardashian. I was about to say that. She is.

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Oh, oh, oh.

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Her and her whole family are like, that's my example of what frustrates me the most. First, like, her and her whole family, like Kylie Jenner, Miss Mam was, she got lip injections and suddenly she's a billionaire because she's selling lip kits, what black women have been made fun of, for big lips the whole time. And then she took them out one day, she tried on being black. She was like, you know what? I keep getting roasted for my lips. Let me take it out. And then she had no lips for a couple of days. And then everyone was roasting her even more. She put them back in. And that's so crazy to me because like she can try on the blackness. She can be paid millions and millions of dollars. Talk about it. Trying to get people to have the illusion of black lips. And then she can just take it off when she doesn't feel like it. But for the rest of us we can't really take off being black and our features are on everyone else seen as oh so beautiful like I don't know but all of a sudden for us it's we're big-lipped we're monkeys all this but oh, yeah, I think all that so Yeah, I'm talking to y'all They won't even they won't even hear this because because they're blocked. They will never even know. Period. Yeah it's like actually not all of them are blocked. I know one of them. Oh. Oh lord. Stop. That's a conversation for another time. It is. But let's talk about hair specifically for a second. Let's talk about cornrows and box braids. How are y'all feeling? Go ahead and tell me. Keep that to black women and PLC please. Why do you feel like you need, first of all, cornrows and box braids is a protective style,

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ma'am.

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Okay. We get this style to protect our natural hair from heat damage, you know, the constant grease and the chemicals and the products, all that stuff. So we don't, we're not physically touching our hair all day every day putting it up taking it down whatever it is a protective Style, okay. Um, I Just never understood why Non POC non black people wanted to get box-breeze and then when your hair falls out you're like, oh my god What what happened? What do I do? We told you not to do it, baby. Don't do that. I just, I never, I never understood it. You know, I'm not saying don't get braids now. Like, obviously, whatever. I'm not, you know, I'm not about to sit here and gate keep all types of hairstyles, but in particular box braids and cornrows, that was, you know, that was for a reason. It's a protective hairstyle. Your hair doesn't need protection from the things that we do. And our hair textures are totally different. Totally different. So I just never understood that, honestly. But I feel like if you want your hair to fall out,

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go ahead.

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That's all you need. I just feel like if you, and then don't click it on like Twitter or Instagram or YouTube, whatever you want to do and complain about it. Be like, oh my gosh, my hair fell out. Yeah, we told you that was what happened. We sat up here and said to you that was not built for your head. And I just feel like, like, I'm like, what? Because even I know for me, when I have, when I get braids, I'm like, even my own hair sometimes is not built for that. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like this is made for me. And my hair is not withstanding the heat. It's just not, it's not working. The girls are angry. So it's just I'm very confusing to me but I also want to take it to the standpoint of That while they have the braids and they're still getting jobs. I mean, right y'all still allowed to go to school. Mm-hmm Why is that I remember this story there is these two black kids they had locks and they had them their whole life but When they went to school, they were told to cut off their locks or they would not be able to participate in sports. But then we see other people, non-black people wearing locks, say doing these YouTube videos, making millions of views and millions of dollars on being like, combing out my locks or locking up my hair, stuff like that. And then that's seen as they're cute, it's hippie, it's you know chic or trendy, whatever. But then there's these two little black kids who have to shave their head to participate in sports. And that is why there's a difference between culture appreciation and culture appropriation. Because if you can do that, make all this money off the fact that you're wearing a black hairstyle and then black people can't wear their own hairstyle, then there needs to be something to be said about that.

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Right.

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I completely agree with that. That also reminds me of the fact, I've never seen this in person but I do see the videos on Twitter and I hate to you know single out anybody but it has to be said and I'll preface this by saying that all of like I said I've never seen it in person but it's very odd to me when I get on Twitter and I see like the underground like Asian cultures that like are obsessed with like black texture I don't understand the obsession. Because I gotta be quite honest with you, when your hair is the texture that mine is, there's nothing desirable about it when it's wet. Like, hello? Like, I just cannot understand what the obsession is, and I'm like, why would you want your hair? Because it's like, I don't know if it's just me, I think it might be just me, but I'm like, my hair is easily tangled. If your hair does not do that on its own, I think you should keep it that way. I just don't understand the obsession. They're like, oh, it looks cool. And I'm like, you look crazy. Oh, like, it's just like the I don't even know how to describe it, but I've seen the videos and I'm not too. I'm not a big fan. I don't know why they do that. Me neither. Every time I see those videos, I get so uncomfortable. Like they're using like, you know, like how guys use the sponges to like, essentially their crow. I see them using those sponges. First of all, the process just to get their hair to that point is ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. They have five people on your head top. That whole process is like 10, 15 million trillion hours. And then you're ripping out, like, it's crazy to me. Like, and then they come out with the sponge and then they spin them in the chair and thing to get this whole 360. And I'm just like, y'all really proud of this? Like, what? Only for it to get tangled and fall out.

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Thank you. Thank you. Like, what possessed you to be like, oh, I want to get this done. Why? Why? I don't get it. I don't get it.

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I had one friend who, he's from Vietnam. He was like, I'm scared of that. I was like, not too scared. He was like, yeah, he said something about that don't feel right. I was like, I'm glad you know. I'm glad you know, because if you ever came to me and said, hey, I want to try this, that'd be the end of our friendship. Because I couldn't look at you crazy like that.

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I don't know. Oh my God.

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So Brianna mentioned something about gatekeeping, and I kind of want to touch on that. So the phrase gatekeeping, people often use to describe the anger behind people not wanting their cultures to be exploited. Um, they believe they are not being let in when they are only appreciating the culture. How do you guys feel about that? And are they onto something? Should we be more lax with our culture? No. Um, absolutely not. Um, I don't, I don't want to say that I come off as mean or rude or anything, but this is our culture. Everybody has their culture, everybody has the way that they do things and all that stuff. And the way I see it, y'all hate us so much. Y'all don't want to be around us, y'all call us the N-word, y'all do this, is that, and a third. So to me, it's just like, if y'all hate us so much, why do you want to look like us? Why do you want to talk like us? Why do you want your hair to be like us? Like, that's what I don't understand. This culture has been in rooted in us from way before time, way before we were here. And we do everything to keep the tradition going. We try to keep it rich and flowing through our generation to generation. And I just, I don't know, some things, but others is just like, okay, you know, whatever, you can try it, whatever. Like food, for example, like you can't gate keep food. People got to eat if you know if they like fried chicken, let them eat fried chicken. If they like fish, let them eat fish. You can't you can't, you know, hoard that thing. But other things like with the hair styles, like the box braids and the type of clothing that we wear, like, like kente cloth and things like that. I don't see why other cultures want to wear those things if you're not a part of it, you know what I mean? I don't get it. Like, you don't see me wearing, like, geisha clothes all day, every day, or, you know, something of that matter. Not to say that I don't appreciate the cultures, just that I'm not a part of it. I don't know about it, the history, and things like that. So I'm not going to disrespect them and just be like, oh, let me put on a geisha outfit today and just go to Publix and come back. Like, no. I'm not dressed for carnival every day, either.

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Right. Exactly.

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I know about that. Right, so I really do feel like something should be gatekept, and others, you could be a little bit more lax on it. I'm going to take it from a different standpoint. I'm going to take it from, I hate to say this, because this is a serious topic. But I'm going to take it from a comedic standpoint. I don't, I mean, you guys probably, well, I know you guys know about December 21st. I don't know, I just had to go through my likes on Twitter to find this tweet, but this girl who was clearly not black, and this is a black specific thing, like if you know about the thing, the tweet, the girl said that black people are built different, we're finna unlock our powers on the 21st of December. Most likely you'll hear about this after the 21st of December but I'm gonna tell you right now, if I don't have my powers, I'm finna riot. Anyway, this girl who was not black, knowing that the tweet was directed at black people, got on TikTok and said that, I swear if I don't get water bending on the 21st of December, and that other people were just in the comments, like going at it. Now I know that's a joke, because obviously we're not going to unlock powers on the 21st of December, but I just feel like if you know, black people don't have much.

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We don't have nothing.

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And what we do have seems to be stripped from us the minute it drops? Like we can't have African-American vernacular English. We can't have the 21st of December. We can't have outfits. We can't have accents. We can't have anything. And I just feel like one time, let us just have a joke within our own community that nobody tries to steal. Like I feel like gatekeeping in that sense, even though it's something as it's the bare minimum, I'm like, let us have it. Let us have one thing to just kiki about. We deserve something. Because everything else, they take it and they wash it up, and then all of a sudden it's ghetto. And I'm like, why? And then it's like, when you look at it, when you get on Twitter and then you think about the things that we say, it's like everybody's been talking about the, it's the whatever for me, and how they can't wait for them to start overusing that so that it'll just go away. And I'm like, that's what happens when people start saying things that they don't understand, like they don't know the meaning of. It's like you start to overuse it and it no longer makes any sense. I have to agree with Brie on this one that there are certain things that do need to be gatekept. That's not to say though that I don't mind sharing. I mean, I don't mind like educating people because I mean, as a future educator, that's my whole job. That is literally my brand. I have to learn how to, I have to teach people. So I mean, I don't mind teaching people about things that they don't know about. But if I teach you about it, don't sit here and say, Oh, yeah, I learned about this on my own. Don't sit here and lie. You didn't learn about that on your own. I'm right here. Like behind every culture, there is somebody who taught you about it. You didn't just use Google to figure this one out. Like, I'm not gonna sit up here and say I know everything about about a certain type of food if I'm not a part of that culture I don't know nothing about that I need to I mean if I didn't know until recently that chai tea I did not know it so recently that that meant the same thing twice I did not know that shy with I can't I don't I can't remember what language it is but they were on Twitter talking about can y'all stop saying chai tea I was like, oh, and the same thing goes for, they're like, the same thing goes for non, like if you say non-bred, it's kind of, I don't know, like, I, I got, I'm remembering it off the top of my head, but they were just like, there's, you guys are saying things you don't know what they mean, and I'm like, thank you for educating me on that, because I feel like I, that's embarrassing. So do the intentions behind the act of culture appropriation matter to you? For example, if someone uses a symbol of your culture in an offensive way, but thought they were doing it in honor of your culture, do you still believe it counts as culture appropriation? Why or why not? I feel like if it's used offensively without knowing, I mean, as long as you're willing to educate them and they don't do it again, like I can, I'm like, okay. But at that point, it's like, if you're trying to be, um, trying to sort of support, I feel like obviously if you don't know that, then you really didn't have an ill intent. But I feel like if after you get educated and you still do it in a negative context, you deserve whatever comes next. Like you deserve the hate train, the cancellation that won't last. You deserve all of it. Because my thing is people took the time to tell you why you were wrong and how you could change it and you didn't. One example I can think of, and I know y'all gonna hate me, but one example that I can think of is Ariana Grande, when she got that tattoo on her hand. Everybody was like, everybody was like, girl, that don't mean what she think it does. And she really said, okay, well, I'm gonna fix it then. After sitting there saying that it hurt, it was on the palm of her hand, she went and fixed it. And my thing is, that's the kind of person that really shows that they actually are open to the criticism and open to fixing what it is that they did wrong in that instance. And my thing is, and I'm not just saying that because y'all know that I love her, but I'm saying that because it's like, not many people do that. I know a lot of people who, a lot of like celebrities who'd be like, oh, they'll be told why they shouldn't say the N word. And then they'd be like, oh, okay. And then in the next week, they're saying it again. Or most recent one is Noah Cyrus talking about, she didn't know that nappy meant like hair.

0:21:32
Oh my God.

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I thought it meant sleepy. And I'm like, girl, why did you say it if you didn't know what it meant? Right, and she didn't even just say nappy. She said nappy-headed. Exactly. And she added ghetto in there for some spice. I was like, ghetto? You know it, man. You did not make that mean sleepyhead. Come on now. Come on now. Hang it up. Oh my gosh. Like, those are the kind of people that irk me. I'm like, we took the time to educate you and tell you why it was wrong. And I know people like that on a personal level. Because I mean, that's happened within our own group. It's like, we tell you why it's wrong, and you trying to fight us on it. How you trying to fight me on something that has to do with my own culture? I don't understand. Are you listening, Erin? The other Erin? Let me not say that. Call him out. Period. Period.

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He's learning though. He's learning.

0:22:06
But he is.

0:22:07
No, he really, yeah, he did. Poor thing.

0:22:08
Yes, it does matter because it all depends on where you're coming from. You know what I'm saying? Another TikTok reference, right? I see a lot of white women on there asking black girls opinions on how to lay their baby hairs down, you know, how to slay a wig and all that stuff. And, you know, and obviously a wig is not all, it's not that bad, but when you start getting into edges and things, you really, you rarely see white women laying edges. So I feel like, you know, they, I think it's kind and sweet that they're asking black women for our opinion because they don't want to offend anybody, you know? So they're coming out asking for your opinion and things like that. But I do feel like the intent does definitely matter. Oh, can I also say something else? Y'all can piggyback off this too. But last night, I was watching a YouTube video. It's by Jubilee. And it was called, Do All White People Think the Same? And one of the questions was about cultural appropriation. And one of the girls was like, she said something about a Halloween costume, like a Native American headdress costume. One white girl was like, I don't think we should be using Halloween to dress up as other people. That's weird. Don't do that. And then this other white girl was like, oh, so what if a six-year-old comes to me and I'm just be like, oh, she can't wear pirate costume because you don't know the history of pirates. And I'm just sitting like, ma'am, pirates, Native Americans, how?

0:23:41
Please.

0:23:42
I'm going to piggyback off that one because I going back to my high school during our pep rally days, I think my junior year, we, our junior colors are red. And there was this kid, I'm really close with him. I still am. I love him, but he's an idiot. But I can't, I just, I can't leave. I can't leave him. Cause it's just like, you need people to educate you, bro. I know that there's a brain in there somewhere You just need a little help But he came and I mean for this specific instance like after a whole bunch was spoke to him He was like, okay, I get it now But he came to school our first spirit day or for our first first pep rally day dress in a Native American headdress And the first thing that I said to him was like that's not for you He was like why I was like just because it's red does not mean it fits the theme. I was like, we were not dressing up as Native Americans. We were dressing up as juniors in high school. I was like, what are you doing? And he was like, I don't see the problem with it. And then our English teacher, who is one of the most, like, educated people I've ever met, he was our AP lit teacher, he was like, Dylan, I'm going to be completely honest with you. I just don't think it's appropriate. I think it might be offensive to people. And he was one of those people, like, his goal was never to offend anybody. So I feel like once he heard that he was like, oh, I see why it's wrong. But it really did take a lot of us to tell him that I'm like, okay, what's not? Why do we have to come out and tell you that it's offensive for you to understand why it's a problem? But they just I don't think like, they just don't seem to get it. Like they love dressing up on Cinco de Mayo. I'm like, do you even know the point? What are you? You're not supposed to dress up for that. I mean, what are you doing? They love and I had somebody in college tell me, when she said that her boyfriend was trying to figure out a costume and she was like telling him that he can't dress up as a Mexican for Halloween. I was like, no, you cannot dress up as a Mexican for Halloween. He did not understand the reason he could not dress up as Mexican. I said, are you Mexican every other day of the year? He's like, no. I was like, yeah, so then don't put your sombrero on. Do not put that sombrero on if you look like a fool because nobody, I don't know, nobody from Mexico who dress like that on a daily basis anyway so hang it up. Exactly, exactly and I feel like when I say that I feel like they're trying to find any type of excuse just to wear some offensive stuff because when I was watching the video last night and the lady literally said pirates I had to close the laptop because I was just like you cannot equate pirates to got to do with everyday Native Americans. That is offensive! What, she really brought up pirates, y'all. I-I have to go to sleep. Brian! Talk about some aye-aye, please! Take a pair and go. Ugh! That made me so mad. I was like, how do you not see the offense? How do you not see-

0:26:18
Swashbuckling? I'm about to say that to a maiden. I'm about to-

0:26:21
Okay. I'm about to appropriate swashbuckling. That's about to be a part of my vocabulary. Don't trigger. That's mine now. I said that. That just blew me. She really, like, I just couldn't believe my ears. Honestly, that's absurd. I don't understand. I don't get it. Okay, last question. Is there anything our communities can do to prevent culture appropriation? Is this something that we can stop from our side? I think that the one thing that we can do as a community, as a whole, we are a melting pot here in America. That's like the one thing that you can do. And I'm speaking as a teacher at this point. Educate, okay? Don't sit here and be like, oh, wow, look at them dressing up like black people again, dressing up like Mexicans again on Halloween after I told them not to. Continue to press these people. I guess that goes along with fighting people, but not physically, press these people. Press them and tell them why it's wrong. Tell them that it's offensive, that it's hurtful. My thing is, if it is hurting your feelings like it should, you gonna get angry. I mean, if people are painting their faces black because they think it's funny, they think it's cute, you're gonna get angry. People are sitting here putting on your native clothing, and it's stuff that's like personal for certain rituals, I can guarantee you, you are going to get angry. Press them. No, but on a serious note, it's like those things, those things that they appropriate and take into their own lives, those are the things that get people killed. It's like you take it and because you don't match the skin tone, you're not gonna see any harm because of it. I feel like it's unfair to try to take those things and then try to say that, oh, this is mine, I did this. And you don't see the same kind of consequences as the people who really did create those things. So I feel like the one thing that we can do is educate, press people, tell them when they're wrong, check these people. But then like Brie said, if it doesn't work, you can resort to throwing hands because, you know, offensive things are hurtful. People's emotions matter and I don't think you should openly be hurtful to these things. And I also feel like if you are somebody who does these things, it is not your place to tell somebody to calm down. Don't tell me to calm down. Don't tell me that it's just a word or that it's just an outfit or if it's just a hairstyle. That's not your place. Don't listen. Just use your ears at this point because you're hurting people's feelings. You're hurting people's lives. So that's just how I feel about it. I agree 100%. And another thing that I also do like, and I see what people are doing, they're coming for, you know, they're coming for people at this point, especially people on like Omegle, they think they can get away with being racial things. And, you know, guess what, they're, they're emailing your employer, they're coming to your school, you know? And I'm just like, well, we told you time and time again. I know that sounds so messed up and mean, but it's honestly the truth. Like you said, if somebody keeps on doing something over and over and over, you're gonna get mad. And if you can't put them pause on them, guess what, we don't come for you in some other way, some sort of fashion, whatever. And these people are not playing. We told you time and time again, do not say this word, do not wear this, do not paint your face in this way. And you just continue not to listen. You're being ignorant and arrogant and you clearly don't care. So guess what? We're gonna show you to care next time and not to do it again. We're gonna make an example of you and that's exactly what people are doing. They're emailing schools and jobs and things like that. And that's the end of that. I've seen plenty of people on Instagram begging, talking about, oh, I didn't know what it mean. I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again.

0:29:34
Please, please.

0:29:36
We told you what it meant.

0:29:37
Exactly, we told you what it meant and you still decided to do it. So guess what? Now you lost your scholarship.

0:29:42
Oh, well.

0:29:44
Charles.

0:29:45
But I agree.

0:29:46
I lost my scholarship. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you to you both for coming on the show. I'd like to remind you guys that you are listening to You Don't Listen at 91.5 KUNV. I'm your host, Karen Kim Charles. I'm your host, Karen Kim Charles. And I'll see you in the next episode. Bye y'all.

Transcribed with Cockatoo